Welcome to another episode of The Octagon session…

The Octagon: Welcome to The Octagon. We appreciate your taking time out to join this chat session which is one of the first of many conversations to go on www.theoctagon.com.ng. This session will end at 2pm. We have two moderators in the room who will only offer guidance where necessary. Please feel free to openly share your thoughts and experiences. Let’s begin with introductions. Please let us know who you are and what you do. After that we will go into the conversation.

Wakeji: My name is Wakeji, officially known as Mary W. Gani. I’m a lawyer/academic/creative writer who is currently on a foray into communications. I manage the communications desk for an international charity.

Titilope: My name is Titilope Sonuga. I’m a performance poet, writer & actor. I’m Intel’s She Will Connect ambassador for Nigeria.

Jibril: Hello all, my name is Jibril a civil servant and academic.

Ihotu: I’m Ihotu Amuta, I am an idea strategist and enterprise educator. I run a company called The Scratch Board focused on business strategy, startup incubation and organisational design. I also run Jewels Network aimed at women’s enhancement. I write, I speak and I mentor kids in Secondary school

Nimah: Hiya, I’m Nimah Arigbabu currently studying politics and security. I worked as a project manager with an NGO prior to my current study.

Venya: Hey everyone, Im Ven Lannap, a passionate individual that hates any form of injustice. Lead at Bo SITA MADE, a youth developmental ngo that is active in the fight against sex trafficking and the Director of Before and After School Academy, Jos

Jake: Jake Okechukwu Effoduh, I have Been a Human Rights Lawyer for 6 Years and a national radio presenter for a decade now.

Blessing: My name is Blessing Oyeleye. I am a Chemical Engineer and Global Energy Consultant. I am a working mother and try to find balance at home and at work.

The Octagon: The lines between what is feminine and what is masculine are drawn from birth. Little girls are wrapped in pink blankets and little boys in blue. Treating men and women as different is so intrinsic to Global Culture that most of us think nothing of it. While in developed countries it often takes the form of unequal pay, glass ceilings and lack of childcare provisions, in developing countries it’s evident in the tradition of child marriage, female infanticide, female genital mutilation and barriers to education for girls.

The Ooni of Ife’s wife recently said “The modern pattern of feminism has succeeded in limiting women of the heights they could reach; gender equality is unrealistic. We can never be equal with men, we are here for a great purpose, we have our roles to play we are powerful and we are a force of nature. Relationships are suffering today, because women want to be men”

To what extent do you think that the educational system tries to push (or unconsciously pushes) people into traditionally “female” and “male” roles?  Do you think women really get the ‘short end of the stick’ in Society, or is this a Myth ? Finally, Is Gender Equality Possible ?

Jake: Gender equality is feasible. It has happened; is happening; and will happen if we make it happen. Women will soon stop demanding quotas and will dictate what they want. They will not matter if they are 10% or 40% but will ensure that whoever is representing them In every level is mindful of their interest 100%. The Ooni’s wife spoke for herself. She can’t speak for women. So I need not reply her, or comment on her statement.

Ihotu: I think the concept of gender equality has been misrepresented in societal discuss. I do not completely agree with the Ooni’s wife but I understand her perspective. Women can do what men can but should they? Every society will evolve into gender equity or equality at different times based on its exposure.

Titilope: I don’t think it’s so simple. If it were happening we wouldn’t still be having this conversation. Being a feminist or demanding gender equality does not equate a woman wanting to be a man. The comment from the Ooni’s wife (who we should actually be calling by her own name) illustrates that people don’t actually understand the importance of gender equality and do not see the subtle ways we consistently relegate women in our society.

Wakeji: I’ve heard it said that equity and equality are different concepts. This may be just semantics, but the different words may be useful for the purpose of context. The comments by the Ooni’s wife may have been made on the basis of her concern for certain societal norms that she considers to have been eroded. The question, in my mind, is whether some of those norms are incompatible with gender equality. Some of these norms may be childcare and home making. The way I see it, gender equality, and these norms that people feel are being eroded are certainly not incompatible.

Venya: Hmm…interesting, each of the gender has a unique role to play, respecting that is what would give balance to the society. God created man and woman to give that balance undertaking that is what ‘equality’ in gender should be. And, most people’s opinions are mostly contextual, so I can understand with Ooni’s wife.

Nimah: You see the problem with people like ooni’s wife is they are too ignorant to pick up a book. A lot of us have forgotten what roles feminism has played in our lives and how it has shaped our society. I don’t think she knows people like Efunsetan, Moremi, Oya, F. Ransom Kuti etc. Without these women we won’t be able to do the things other women see as ” basic things” if she wants to see what gender inequality is I suggest she sees what happens with the women in Saudi.

Ihotu: Even today I go for some management level meetings and there are less women in the room than men and some of the men try to shut you down or are condescending. Is that society’s fault or should every man take responsibility for his actions? Or are there women refusing to go past a level in their careers because of the assumed “gender” issues posed by society

The Octagon: For clarification purposes. Gender inequality swings both ways – affects men and women .  So, for the men in the group – Society tells you that you can’t be “too emotional”, you need to achieve status by earning lots of money, resolve conflict with violence, choose mechanical and analytical jobs, etc. When a man decides he wants to be a Make up artist, he’s often viewed as Effeminate. This being said, the focus when Gender equality is being discussed is women (not so much men). Why do you think this is?

Venya: I agree. We need to balance this gender equality issue, though, in most societies women are at the receiving end, there’s aspect of the men too. And when dealing with the issue, culture/tradition come to play.

Wakeji: In relation to the question though, I think that the formal education system in Nigeria is not necessarily always homogeneous. Thankfully,,there are schools where boys happily take foods and nutrition as vocational subjects. Whereas, in some other schools, that may not be an  option. While the general outlook though, is that Nigerian school systems tend to box us into roles, I had a totally different experience. Because I attended a fully military secondary school, and we were not spared any aspect of the military training that our counterparts in the boys’ s cool experienced. For the most part, the assignment of gender roles is established in homes and in social contexts.  Schools only act as enforcement. Many little girls are only given dolls and cooking sets. Balls and cars are not necessarily considered when shopping for infant girls and toddlers. The reverse is the same for boys.

Ihotu: I strongly believe this issue should be first dealt with individually and then it becomes a societal outlook and not the other way around. There will always be those who believe men are superior to women for different reasons be it political, traditional, religious or merely societal. But where the woman continuously proves herself as capable she will not be denied although she may face these challenges. Its a mindset that starts with the woman/girl. Do we feel helpless and in need of affirmation? that front keeps us women down the equality line.

Jake: We don’t need women to always coordinate actually. If every woman acted for herself and her interest irrespective of whatever limitations she faces then we will have many women all over acting for themselves, thereby creating a symbiotic movement of women gaining grounds for themselves. This is empowerment.

Venya: A lot of ‘our’ mindsets are based on ‘our’ culture/tradition viewpoint…for our girls/women and boys/men are treated for example, in the communities I work with is based on the culture of such communities, boys grow up treating girls that become women they way the men do and, girls see themselves they way the community does.

Wakeji: Ven,  very true. I’m just concerned as to how we can change these traditions. I have recently been gearing about quite a few women who are well off financially and can afford not to work, but have decided to maintain careers in order to show their children the importance of gender equality. For such women, they are waging their own community project on gender equality in the home front.

Ihotu:  So it starts with a mindset makeover and values reorientation

Jibril: There are many aspects in society, but it is generally agreed and accepted that the role of women in the family is undisputed. We have seen women that have handled strategic roles on  a national level, and  excelled. If it is felt that in some areas they are misrepresented, such areas need to be identified. I personally know skilled women that are thorough and efficient.

Jake:  Don’t bother about changing the tradition. Just ignore them.

Titilope: Some of those traditions are difficult to ignore. If a family can only afford to send one child to school then they’re likely going to choose the boy child based on an imbalance there. The girl cannot simply ignore it in that situation. When we speak about gender equality we need to acknowledge that for many people it’s not a mind over matter issue. There are actual socio economic hindrances to them having access to the same things that men do. The same education, employment opportunities etc.  Sometimes you can be as excellent as you want to be but simply because you are a woman certain doors will not open.

Venya: Of course..not changing the tradition, but, changing the mindset of people is where it starts.

Wakeji: I’d phrase Okey’s suggestion like this  “Each one, BE one.” You’re right, Titi. But we cannot approach the problem on all fronts. For the educational front, there is a problem whereby kids learn math and science, but are not elevated or empowered to think and to question norms. That is the main problem I see with our education system. The art of asking questions is actually what causes a society to progress. I’ve seen kids being shut down, and it stifles their development.

Titilope: We aren’t educated to question anything period. A lot of our education in Nigeria focuses on how to duplicate exactly what your teacher has told you. Children that are inquisitive, ask questions, challenge norms are sectioned off as problematic. They aren’t encouraged to question their teachers. So when your teacher says you will study food and nutrition unless you have parents that advocate for you. That’s probably what you’ll do. Even if you have the skills to be something else entirely. Not to say that food and nutrition isn’t a gift in itself. But children, girls in particular do not have that sort of advocacy

Wakeji: True… or if a girls’ school does not offer technical drawing, then little Asabe’s hopes to be an architect may be lost.

Venya: It’s a taboo to question your teachers most of the time, as it is to question some aspects of the tradition, and so a child grow up with that mindset, and it becomes who he/she is.

Ihotu: Hmmn.. of the children we have now are bold and question everything so I believe we have improved on that front. TIME is what we need –  time and effort. The more qualified women in leadership roles the more receptive society will be of equity and equality.

Wakeji: That is precisely why empowerment and the struggle for equality has to start in the home. The way I see it, every mother, and indeed every woman should create scenarios in her home where gender roles can be fluid enough to embrace equality. When a woman does not give her son chores, she is breeding a chauvinistic male.

Titilope: I had a conversation with a lady once about whether or not the glass ceiling exists. And her response was that if women dressed appropriately to work and didn’t expect to move ahead because of their charms there would be no glass ceiling. I died.

12/07/2016 13:49:57: Adaora: So, there is a vague definition of gender roles..Let’s bring it down to personal examples maybe ? It’s Thursday evening and a meeting has been scheduled for 9pm at Ikoyi Club. It’s a Suya and Beer type of meeting. John and Jones at the office are attending this important meeting, and Janice is excluded because she’s female. This is the daily life of some women.  If Janice pushes to attend, she has to deal with 1. The guys at Ikoyi club assuming she’s indecent because she’s there so late. 2. Her Family and friends saying she shouldnt attend such meetings 3. If anything happens to her while out, society will say she shouldn’t have been there ‘doesn’t she know she’s a woman.’  … 4. Here’s the thing, all the major decision making meetings, that lead to promotions are made here.

Titilope: The fact that a woman has to think about these things before going out for drinks with her co workers is a problem. If we have reached this utopia of gender equality then why can’t she go? Why can’t she call her husband and say I’m going to be out late. Why is she doing complex emotional mathematics because of an evening out? It makes no sense.

Wakeji: In some ways, those things are symptomatic of wider society  problems such as security, etc. Again, why can’t she demand a rescheduling of the meeting? It may be difficult, but it is possible – The art of negotiation. The problem is that, such difficulties point to the inequality women do indeed experience.

Ihotu: I have dealt with a similar issue and I didn’t hangout with the guys because I felt it was an inappropriate environment and time too. But I still got selected to lead the team when the opportunity came because I delivered on the job and I found other ways to make time with me, interesting for my colleagues. Its tricky when the “you’re a woman” situation is pushed at you, but smile and get the job done. There is no need to argue about your gender. Wherever the woman finds herself just excel and the walls of whatever prejudice faced will begin to crack and eventually fall. Women have been blessed with the ability to multitask and the gift of intuition. so what ever role it is; leader, colleague, wife, mother etc bringing in these 2 things will ensure excellence. If we can be unrelenting but balanced this gender equality issue will begin gradually fade away.

Wakeji: That’s why I will stand by “each one,  BE one.” Because each woman knows her unique circumstances  and how to maximize them. There are women who did not have formal education, but made efforts to break out of the box society and gender roles placed them in.

12/07/2016 13:58:54: Nimah A: I am a firm believer of letting people’s strength and ability determine what they can do. People should not segregate others based on their gender. Today, we celebrate the Maya Angelous and Oprah Winfreys of this world for that same reason. They decided to just BE!

Blessing: Women can have a voice, women can lead, women can deliver on their own terms.

Titilope: The more examples of those women we see the more empowered we become. I agree. But part of the reason why we circle this conversation so often is because people do not even want to start by acknowledging the challenges that do exist. It is because Maya Angelou and Oprah exceeded expectations that we celebrate them today. Had they not shared their own struggles and how they overcame them we could pretend that they were just fortunate, which is not the case. Women have incredible gifts. That is undeniable. I’m continually inspired by our resilience and our power.

Wakeji: In reality, this is a struggle that women all over the world have experienced, regardless of their economic backgrounds.

Blessing: I don’t spend energy thinking about what the men in my group are doing. What I try to instill in my 7year old daughter is to focus on giving her personal best and that goes for every girl out there. Let your work (not your noise or complaints about gender equality) speak for itself. Then and only then will you receive the respect and recognition of your peers, men or women. I also believe that young girls need to be taught at an earlier age to speak up, not in a rude or bossy way because no one has time for “an attitude” but in a genuine way that contributes to the conversation at hand. Be it in a forum, school, work environment. We need to teach girls to embrace their thoughts and speak the truth to their environment .

Venya: It starts from me-it starts from you, ‘and the cloud of witnesses’ will follow suit

The Octagon: We will be ending this conversation in 5 mins. Can we all share some last points? Thank you.

Nimah: Gender equality and equity is achievable.

Ihotu: Be your best self and the world will recognize and applaud!

Venya: Let’s keep moving…together the society will have a balance!

Titilope: I think you can simultaneously be excellent and be concerned about the equality of the sexes. I think you can simultaneously exceed expectations and help others do the same. The more examples that exist of women doing incredible things, the easier it is for young girls to visualize themselves doing the same. There’s lots of work to be done, but there are already so many incredible examples of people doing transformative work in each of their arenas. That’s exciting.

Blessing: Gender equality is more than a goal in itself, it is a precondition for a better society. A society that balances the voice and contribution of both sexes becomes better and stronger in terms of economy, good governance and sustainability.

Jake: I mentor 4 young girls and they don’t care about what tradition says about being a girl. They don’t want to be morally right or in check. They don’t care. They disrupt the system. They determine what they want for themselves and go by it. They damn the consequences and they are succeeding in all their endeavors. One is an athlete.  What makes me even prouder is that they do all of these not copying or modeling male definitions.

The Octagon: Thank you all so much for taking time out to be on the octagon.

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